Im Voraus

The Chronicles of Conor

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1. Will 12.10.07 / 7am
   1

   Well that sure is interesting.
2. Cihan 12.10.07 / 2pm
   2

   well…metal sucks
3. Conor 12.10.07 / 2pm
   3

   Case in point.
4. Will 12.10.07 / 6pm
   4

   Quite so.
5. Julia 12.10.07 / 9pm
   5

   SO AWESOME: http://www.torproject.org/
   ALSO: http://www.securityfocus.com/news/11486

   I would say that 98% of all metal sucks (especially in regard to the lyrics). Now, two percent is obviously a regular number, and therefore can simply be discarded. In conclusion, Cihan is correct. Learn some thermodynamics; it will make you a better human.
6. Conor 12.10.07 / 9pm
   6

   Dude, I tried to teach you two years ago how to set up a Tor server, because you were on university bandwidth.

   Man what a coked-out comment.

   Case in point, as they say.
7. T-rex 12.10.07 / 9pm
   7

   What sucks is Thermodynamics.
8. Conor 12.10.07 / 9pm
   8

   Oooohhh no he didn’t OH YES HE DID!
9. Julia 12.10.07 / 10pm
   9

   Julia pets conor on the head.

   That article is weak at best (and I trust you know that).

   “Asked for their favourite type of music, 39 per cent said rock, 18 per cent R&B and 14 per cent pop. Six per cent said heavy metal and a third rated it in their top five genres.”

   That proves nothing. In that particular group of talented teens, six per cent listens to heavy metal. That is not to say that all intelligent people listen to heavy metal nor that all people who listen to heavy metal are intelligent. It simply states that there is RATHER SMALL group of teenagers (6% for crying out loud!) who in fact belong to both groups : those who like metal and those who are gifted.

   What about “delinquents” and those who perform poorly in school? What percentage of those like metal?

   Plus, when making the conclusion that these people like heavy metal because they are intelligent leaves ALL sorts of other factors out. The way the article presents the study shows inconclusive data at best – though I don’t doubt it (in fact I hope) that the study itself is much better.

   Finally, as is, presenting that article in conjunction with the the headline “I listen to metal because I’m smart” speaks only against your own intelligence, presenting data against your own case (because using that article to support your claim shows you do not understand nothing).

   Have fun listening to metal.
10. Julia 12.10.07 / 10pm
    10

    @ Nick: I know thermodynamics only peripherally. I do understand it’s a rather hard subject. If it sucks… we’ll I guess I could take your word for it, as you’ve tended to be right in the past… though I recently found a really amazing book which I have ordered and am so very excited to read: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Four-Laws-That-Drive-Universe/dp/0199232369
11. T-rex 12.10.07 / 10pm
    11

    The point is that Conor is smart, and Conor listens to metal.

    1 out of 1. I’m done collecting data. It’s perfect. As far as I know, 100% of people that listen to metal are smart and 100% of people that are smart listen to metal.

    Exit polls also show that 100% of people that replied to this article enjoy wasting time, and are probably stupid but I refuse to waste time fully analyzing this data.
12. Julia 12.10.07 / 10pm
    12

    Nick, you’ve said it all. Thanks for not being on my team. You’re quite the bro.
13. will 12.10.07 / 11pm
    13

    I support nick. Well done sir.
14. Conor 12.11.07 / 1am
    14

    Nick you absolutely saved the day on this one. LOL’d hard, thanks man. And will, ytf does your flag icon say you posted from the UK? I gotta look at that…

    Unless you have a story you’d like to tell us.
15. Conor 12.11.07 / 1am
    15

    Btw I’d just like to note that while I’ve definitely received spam comments before (and had to install anti-spam plugins to take care of it), I’ve never had a troll before.

    I view this like the website just grew up.
16. will 12.11.07 / 2am
    16

    you know not really sure. I was messing around with regional formats but changed it back to USA.
17. Jordan 12.11.07 / 3am
    17

    Everyone here can blow me, since no one else programs to metal.
18. Cihan 12.11.07 / 3pm
    18

    Hi Jordan Hi Julia!

    It s actually hard to discuss those things with native speakers…but I can bring it short to the point:

    “Metal SUCKS”! Thats awful music. Ok there are some Songs…But as most of u would say: the exeptions proves the rule—>same thing for Conor is Smart Dude u re definitly smart but dont say it s because u listening to that Music. I know deep in ur hard u wanna turn back to good indie rock! I have my arms wide open like creed would say.
19. Conor 12.11.07 / 5pm
    19

    Unfortunately Cihan has invalidated an otherwise well-reasoned statement by alluding to Creed. Sorry buddy, I don’t make the rules, I just follow ‘em.

    And dude, I at least pretend to program to heavy metal. Just because the metal I like doesn’t sound like someone programmed it…
20. Julia 12.11.07 / 8pm
    20

    Native speakers…

    <3
21. Conor 12.11.07 / 9pm
    21

    @Julia: You passed the Turing test! =D
22. Julia 12.11.07 / 9pm
    22

    I found no good statistics online… this is the closest I got:

    “Twice a year, Northbrook, Ill.-based market research firm Teenage Research Unlimited (TRU) asks teens, ages 12 to 19, a battery of questions, including: Which two types of radio stations do you listen to most often? According to the latest survey of 2,051 teens conducted last June and July and released in October, current hits and hip-hop/rap are by far the two most popular genres, preferred by 50 percent and 42 percent, respectively, of all teens. Coming in at No. 3 is rhythm & blues, a favorite format of 22 percent of teens, followed closely by alternative radio and hard rock/heavy metal, both of which are favored by 19 percent of all young listeners.”

    I wonder whether the percentage of the american population that like metal is > or < 6%. The above info, however, tells us very little. What do you think, Conor. Does america love metal?
23. Julia 12.11.07 / 9pm
    23

    likes*
24. Conor 12.11.07 / 9pm
    24

    Dude, who the hell listens to the radio anymore? That’s like judging the diction of teenagers by collecting pen-and-paper letters. Of course metal isn’t represented on the radio, but neither is a lot of stuff that’s relevant to pop culture these days.

    Whether metal is popular on a national scale also isn’t relevant, given that I’m sure you would anticipate my claim that smart people in America are in a very small minority.

    I guess I have to make a follow-up post going into greater detail on this. I guess I also have to insult things I love more, because it always starts a flamewar.

    God I love the internet!
25. Julia 12.11.07 / 9pm
    25

    Of course the national scale is relevant! (sigh, I can’t believe I am spelling this out… then again, you ARE a metalhead <3). If the percentage of people in america who loves metal is higher than the percentage of talented people who love metal, that indicates that intelligent people are not attracted to metal.
26. Conor 12.11.07 / 9pm
    26

    No. No, it wouldn’t indicate that at all! Look I’m just gonna chill here and wait for statistics-savvy Nick to swoop to the rescue on this one.

    You’d have to have separate samples of random Americans and whether they like metal, then of smart people in America and whether they like metal.

    In addition the article was specifically addressing a subset of the population, namely adolescents, and thus your idea of utilizing an antiquated media outlet like the radio wouldn’t be the best way of going about things IMO.

    You’re right to question whether metal is also associated with bad grades (and thus presumably low intelligence, though that’s dangerous territory in itself), and the article author mentions that, but I think the study lacks granularity in its definition of metal. I know metal and I know metalheads, and after a minute of talking with someone about anything BUT metal, I can pinpoint which genres they like.

    Now that’s a study that needs done! I’ll post a follow-up sometime this week on this.
27. Julia 12.11.07 / 9pm
    27

    The study is indeed awful – or at the very least the way it was presented. Now, as far as statistics goes… You would indeed prefer a survey of teenagers, rather than the overall population (but I suspect that would be even harder to find). You are using this group as a proxy for the intelligent population. By comparing its likes to the likes of the over all population, you’ll be able to see whether intelligent people are more or less likely to enjoy metal than the average person. Makes sense?

    As far as the radio goes, I DIDNT utilize that as proof. In fact I said I found NO good statistics online.

    The article does lack refinement, as it seems each subject was allowed to define metal as he or she wanted to, creating, therefore inconsistency and adulterating the data. Props for recognizing that.

    I agree that bad grades is not always indication of lack of intelligence. Other factors MUST be taken in consideration. However, you will have to find a proxy for intelligence – be it what it may, it will always be a proxy. So after adjusting for other factors, grades could be a good proxy… or SATs, or IQ test…

    Also, it is very plausible that metal IS indeed related to intelligence. But only in so far that intelligent kids can sometimes be outcasts and metal is very big in the outcast community. Again, many factors other than intelligence play the role here, and it’s naive (at best) to attribute metal liking to intelligence. Again, no proof of such link has been convincingly presented.

    GOD I AM SO GOOD.
28. Conor 12.11.07 / 9pm
    28

    Dude. Compare what you just said:
    

    Also, it is very plausible that metal IS indeed related to intelligence. But only in so far that intelligent kids can sometimes be outcasts and metal is very big in the outcast community.

    with what I quoted from the article:
    

    …many adolescent “metalheads” are extremely bright and often use the music to help them deal with the stresses and strains of being gifted social outsiders.

    I think I’m done here.
29. Julia 12.11.07 / 9pm
    29

    Where is the data?
30. Julia 12.11.07 / 9pm
    30

    Ok. seriously… I feel like it would take me too long to explain everything. I am just going to say this real quick: if liking metal is the dependent variable, this study presents 2 independent variables (though many other exist): 1. intelligence 2. social aptitude. Summarizing it in one expression (’cause I do have to turn in my physics lab today): HOLDING ALL OTHER VARIABLES CONSTANT.
31. Julia 12.11.07 / 9pm
    31

    Plus… you totally ignore everything else I said, which was, IMO, much more valuable to tease out one thing that you thought you could burn me on (sorry, not today)… and you’re done? how very disappointing.
32. Julia 12.11.07 / 9pm
    32

    I think we should all agree that the conclusion that there is a link between intelligence and metal liking is premature at best, and probably false. I mean, that is no decent proof either, but if we were to consider anecdotal data as proof, this whole exchange between people who like metal and people who don’t (and yes, I am claiming Nick and Cihan- you can have Will and J) fits like a glove. I think I’ll leave as an exercise to the reader to figure out which group I believe is more intelligent.
33. will 12.11.07 / 10pm
    33

    Wait when did this turn into insulting others intelligence I was content to watch you work yourself into a frenzy over a not quite serious blog post.
34. Julia 12.11.07 / 11pm
    34

    Mess with the best, die like the rest.

    Hopefully you can appreciate the self-depreciation nature of this comment.

    But seriously, it is my personal opinion that this form of debate, albeit being fun, is juvenile and mostly fruitless. Then again, if you want to play with the boys, it’s best not to wear skirts. I wasn’t the first one to give out the first personal insult. My first comment was about metal alone.

    (I am done with my physics lab, yay!)
35. T-rex 12.11.07 / 11pm
    35

    Ok the problem here is that you can’t form a statistic about intelligent people because you can never remove the fact that your statistic is biased towards people that respond to your survey.

    I would never answer any of these questions, and it is fair to assume that a smart person ALWAYS has something better to do than participate in a survey that will yield inconclusive results.

    Actually, I’d believe first that the intellectual community has an unconscience drive to mislead the general public (aka the norms) into what they like. The fact that statistics about smart people exist only proves my hypothesis.

    I’m thinking we may have found the actual first Foundation, and you better lay off Julia because they are trying to manage our entire society from behind the scenes. Kinda tough work.
36. Julia 12.11.07 / 11pm
    36

    On a second thought, I am back to my original position: you can have Nick. <3

    Nick, you know I respect you oodles, but I could have a whole new argument about your last statements. I do find interesting the idea that “the intellectual community has an unconscience [sic] drive to mislead the general public (aka the norms) into what they like.” … thought I think you’re being too lenient with the word “prove”.

    Good theory/start though. Good do some research.
37. Conor 12.12.07 / 11pm
    37

    Actually I agree with Nick about 1) the Foundation hypothesis and 2) that smart people are tricky bastards. However, I definitely think it’s silly to assume that data must be gathered via questionnaires or surveys. I mean, yeah, of course that would affect the response, but there are plenty of other metrics to be used, the most obvious of which would probably be standardized test scores and GPAs.

    I myself have objections with those being used, even though I tend to score high on both. This is because I’ve met at ton of people I consider very bright who don’t seem to do well grade-wise, which might be related to boredom (due to great ability) or any number of reasons.

    But as Julia said, it’s also entirely possible to be way more objective: take a sample of students and test them for intelligence via the usual bullshit, accounting for verbal intelligence, mathematical intelligence, musical, etc. Then look for correlations between music listening habits. The problem is, it would take a lot of time for metalheads to even begin to be represented, given their minority status in the population. Same goes for classical and techno musical enthusiasts (of high school age), I should think.
38. T-rex 12.13.07 / 12am
    38

    What other method is there for collecting your favorite style of music? Something so opinion based can only be collected by asking them, or possibly hacking their brain and extraction the data.

    Every methodology has some sort of bias and my sweeping generalization is that an intelligent person cares so little about your study that they will always mislead you.
39. Conor 12.13.07 / 12am
    39

    Tbf I think you’re conflating the populations of “intelligent people” and “assholes.” But I see your point that they may in fact be fundamentally related, much more so than either party lets on.

    I think this comment thread shows that very well.

    “When ENTPs collide!”
40. Julia 12.17.07 / 10pm
    40

    I didn’t know you guys had continued this discussion.

    @ Conor: I never suggested such methodology.

    ….

    This surely is a mess.

    So let’s put some order in the Hen House, shall we?

    1. Firstly, what is the question we are trying to answer? I suspect it is something along the lines

    ” Are intelligent people more likely to be attracted to metal (than other people)?” (which, by the way, if proven correct – or rather failed to be proven false -, does not imply that all intelligent people are attracted to metal, but rather that metal worshipers are more likely to be above average in terms of intelligence.)

    or is the question something like this:

    “Is metal the favorite type of music of intelligent people? (or: Are intelligent people more likely to be attracted to metal (than other genres))” (which, if proven true, would in fact show that generally intelligent people like metal; but then again, it wouldn’t prove that all metalheads are intelligent)

    2. Secondly, it is necessary to define our terms. How are we defining metal? How are we defining intelligence?

    3. Thirdly, we must define our methodology. How are we going to collect data? Nick brings up the point that all proxies are by nature flawed. This is true and we must always try to correct for that; but nonetheless proxies can be very valuable in giving us hints of possible trends.

    Furthermore, Nick cautions us that intelligent people, knowing the bias that every proxy holds, will not respond in earnest (and therefore the whole study will be meaningless (ah, what a self-fulfilled prophecy!)). To that, I have only to say Nick’s theory is is purely of anecdotal nature, being based solely on personal observation and speculation. Now, even is Nick’s theory empirically proves to hold some water, it can still be corrected for, since whatever measurement of intelligence is chosen, I doubt that it will not yield a continuous data set; in other words, I doubt that the data will be something of the kind: Super intelligent, intelligent, average, god you are damn… but rather I suspect that it will be more like a scale, like GPA or any other quantitative measure.

    4. We must now think of what other factors might influence metal-liking. Social factors might be an important one. Again, the questions of proxies and definition arises. What measurement should we use for measuring social activities? Number of friends? Online or IRL? … I am not qualified to answer this question, though I am very confident that with very little literature review we would easily be able to find out what has worked and what has not worked in measuring this particular variable.

    5. Now we have our dependent variable (Metal-liking) and at least some of our independent variables (intelligence, social skills – there might be others, such as how much your friends like metal or … i dont, i am not a metal head. I have no idea why people would like metal). At any rate, it is time to put together a model.

    Metal-liking = Intelligence + social skills + error.

    Ah! Perhaps metal liking should be a ratio. You ask people to rate different genres of music, then do a ratio:

    metal rating/ average genres rating

    ….

    Ok. I think I am done for now.

    But I think it’s pretty clear, after this extensive discussion, that the article presented in this blog is idiotic at best, and that simply saying that 6% of a group of intelligent kids likes metal proves nothing (in fact, it doesn’t even suggest anything).
41. Julia 12.17.07 / 11pm
    41

    I made a lot of grammatical and spelling errors in this last post; for that I apologize. I guess I’ll re-read stuff before I post it next time.
42. Im Voraus » Blog Archive » I listen to metal because I drink and drive. Wait, what? 08.05.08 / 11am
    42

    [...] listen to metal because I drink and drive. Wait, what? A while back, I posted about an article in a major news outlet that attempted to draw a correlation between listening to metal [...]

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